Have you ever been to a strip club

I do find the subject of sexual acting out choices fascinating. I can now very easily remove my personal feelings from the shit my husband did during his years of acting out. He’s sober now six years and we are a little over a day away from the anniversary of discovery of his secret life. Seriously, I’m good. I really am. 🙂

I’m sitting here in the ICU. I have the 8pm-8am shift at the hospital. While everyone else is home sleeping I’m here in a chair next to my Dad’s bed listening to the monotonous sound of his ventilator. They tried to take it out this afternoon, but stopped when his heart rate escalated. They have backed way off on his sedation and a few minutes ago they dialed way back on his fentanyl. I got my hand squeeze. He’s resting now, so I will write.

So as mentioned here before, Blue Eyes’ acting out included porn and masturbation throughout his 40 years as an active sex addict. Once the world wide web was invented, he graduated from soft core paper porn (like Victoria’s Secret catalogs) to online porn. The porn wasn’t illegal or even deviant. He’s not attracted to younger women, no school girl fantasies. He’s more looking for middle-aged voluptuous women of color and very gentle bdsm scenarios. He’ll read this blog, eventually, so yeah, he’ll know I’ve divulged another one of his “secrets.” Along with the porn, there was grooming. I think as he got older and if there was an interested woman, he got bolder. He always flirted even way back in college, but I never thought much of it. I wasn’t insecure.

The first “affair” happened after years of talking with the woman on the phone through work. She was unhappily married and Blue Eyes would eventually find out she was an attractive (and voluptuous) hispanic woman of our age. Again, as described in previous posts, he got hits for years from mere phone contact with this woman, without even meeting her. When he finally did meet her, and after months of continued flirting with no sexual component, the whole thing ended once they had sex. But by this point, Blue Eyes was 25+ years into his sexual addiction, and the sex was an escalation. Once he knew he could do it, he added it to his repertoire but it was by no means the goal. I actually think he got a lot more hits thinking about the sex than he ever did actually having the sex.

The second “affair” was with the less attractive and obese hispanic secretary. She was older than Blue Eyes by a few years and once she asked for anything other than sex, she was gone.

With the third “affair” partner (garnered from the Craig’s List Ad) Blue Eyes had entered a whole new ball game. I have written plenty about this woman, but again, Blue Eyes admits that the hits came fast and furious from texting, sexting, emailing and phone calls. She required that their contact be more than a “quickie” because she felt like a “whore.” I hadn’t heard the term booty call since the 70’s until Blue Eyes mentioned that that is what the other woman kept asking if she was. Yep, she was! 🤷🏻‍♀️

Their contact was infrequent. By the time she made the phone call, Blue Eyes’ sexual acting out behaviors were de-escalating. I think he actually realized what he was doing, so different from what he knew was right, or what he wanted to be doing, had a cause and although scary, he wanted to explore it.

Sexual addiction on one hand is very simple, and yet on the other, quite complicated.

“Compulsive sexual behavior is sometimes called hypersexuality, hypersexuality disorder or sexual addiction. It’s an excessive preoccupation with sexual fantasies, urges or behaviors that is difficult to control, causes you distress, or negatively affects your health, job, relationships or other parts of your life.” (mayoclinic.org)

That’s the simple definition. What people do to get the hits, however, can be complicated, risky, expensive, illegal, and downright cruel.

For Blue Eyes, his behaviors fell within his own fucked up guidelines. In some respects he was completely delusional. He didn’t hire prostitutes, because that’s illegal, but he had sex with his subordinate secretary, for which he could have been sued. Sex addicts do not usually think straight, in my opinion. They become obsessed with their fantasies and nothing else matters. The questionable part to me, however, is how, if they’re so caught up in the addiction, can they be so effectively deceptive? How do they get so good at lying and hiding? It’s messed up!

I did not know, until January 2014, that my husband was a sex addict. I thought we had a truthful marriage. I thought our sex life was good, and relatively normal. Now I know there is no normal when it comes to sex addiction. We had a lot of sex, but no matter how much sex we had, he would always be able to convince himself it wasn’t enough. I was in a no win situation.

But what I wasn’t, was a prude. When our kids were in middle school we went to Las Vegas with friends. They have one boy, The Pragmatist’s age. We all got to do things we wanted to do. Their son wanted to go to the shooting range (minimum age: 11!!!) so some of us did that. Not me or the Pragmatist, but the Peacemaker was really into it, ugh! Those damn violent video games. The guy that worked there said our 12 year old could do his job!!! Nooooo. We ate great food, took in a show or two. The other couple did some gambling. Then John, the other Dad told us there was one more thing he wanted to do, go to a strip club. He had heard that Spearmint Rhino was a pretty “classy” place. Blue Eyes did NOT want to go, at all. I said, “could it be any worse than the shooting range???”

In the end, we set the boys up in their beautiful room at The Wynn with a rental movie and all the room service they could eat, and we headed off-strip to the club. It wasn’t late, and it was mid week between Christmas and New Years. The club was pretty dead, at least in the main room. We were told there was a VIP in the private room who, with his friends, had grabbed up a bunch of girls. The guy kept trying to get me to figure out who was in the next room… he said it was definitely a name EVERYONE would know. I told him I couldn’t care less.

He sat us away from the stage and brought us drinks. It was clear from the get go that John wanted a lap dance. Pretty sure John had been to a lot of strip clubs. There was a dancer who had just completed her routine on the pole, and he called her over. I was intrigued that he seemed to know a lot about how this whole thing works. His wife seemed unconcerned. Blue Eyes was mortified by the whole affair. So John got his lap dance while the rest of us chatted. It was kinda dark in the room, but light enough that I could see the other men. About a half dozen of them sitting very close to the stage, a few drinks deep, drooling over the girls with cash on the table. I guess I’ll never understand all the ways people throw their money away.

John came over and told me he wanted to buy Blue Eyes a lap dance. I told him I didn’t care but I thought we should pick a different girl. I told John this particular girl he had chosen wasn’t Blue Eyes’ type. I said Blue Eyes would probably like a girl with more meat on her bones. John seemed angry and said, “oh, you mean like YOU.” I said, “no, not like me… someone with big breasts.” John just walked away from me and did what he wanted. He gave the girl the money for a lap dance and she approached Blue Eyes but he was so not into it. He was so uncomfortable I thought he was going to throw up! I called the girl over to me. She said, “oh you want the lap dance?” I laughed and said no and asked her to sit down next to me. She said she wasn’t allowed. I said, well we paid the money? So she sat. I asked her how she got to be a stripper. She said she was a student at UNLV and she had student loans and no money and one of her girlfriends introduced her to stripping. She’d been on the dance team in high school in rural Washington state. Stripping was easy money. I asked her how close to graduating she was. She said she had dropped out and was stripping full time. I asked her why? She said she liked the money. She was 23. I told her strippers can’t strip forever. She acknowledged I was right. I asked her if her parents knew. She said no. I suggested she go back to school full time and if she couldn’t find another job that paid her as much, she should strip part time only until she finished her schooling. I suggested she move out of Vegas as soon as she could. She hugged me and walked over to a group of young men who had just arrived. At one point one of the strippers offered me a lap dance and told Blue Eyes she could satisfy me better than he could. She was a bold one. I did find a beautiful black woman with large breasts who I invited over for a lap dance with Blue Eyes. Even though she was definitely what I would learn is called a “template,” he was having none of it. Of course he wasn’t. His compulsive behavior was about secrecy and control. Me handing him this gift, wasn’t a gift at all. I shrugged and thanked the woman.

That’s our one experience with a strip club. I know Blue Eyes hasn’t been to another. I believe him when he says he hasn’t. It’s too public, costs money, it’s just not his thing.

43 thoughts on “Have you ever been to a strip club

  1. Re: your question. Yes. Strip club. Once. Why? I wanted to know what all the hoopla was about. I went to see the male stripper area, only briefly stopped at the female stripper part of the club. It was a high-end club in Canada. Around here, the nicer clubs are across the border in Canada, and apparently, only “skanky women” work in the clubs in our area.

    I also did LSD. Once. Why? I wanted to know what all the hoopla was about. Hallucinating wasn’t my thing. I also drove 140 mph. Once. That, I’d do again! LOL It felt like 75 in my car, which supposedly can go 175? Yes, I will do it legally and safely (as safe as it can be – helmet, special shoes, 3-point harness, etc.) I plan to take car track lessons (here in NY, one can’t simply go to any car track and drive fast legally, one must pass tests and go through the ranks to become certified at different levels). I could fly to Vegas and drive exotic cars there, though, for big bucks. Probably not wise or safe. Prostitution is legal there, too. Also not wise or safe. A condom (if used) doesn’t cover everything. YUCK.

    The strip club? I thought it was dumb. Women hooting. The guy objectifying himself. Penis “parlor tricks” – stupid. I was not turned on in the least. I wondered if he was in debt or hooked on drugs and needed to sell himself. Upstairs, where the females stripped, the women were attractive, but it seemed so boring. There were no men drooling.

    This was years and years ago.

    Interestingly, Kat, in the clubs my husband went to, he got “private lap dances” – I’m not even sure whether they do them in front of other customers around here – they do them in private. There are also “bed dances” and “couch dances” – all in private rooms – and more than a dance happens in those rooms. Canada – more loose than the US, and the US has different laws which vary by state just like marijuana.

    The 1st time my husband got a lap dance in the private room, the stripper had sex w/ him for no money. Of course he went back to her. Escalate, much? A few years after that – call girls. I asked our disclosure therapist about the freebie stripper at our disclosure – it completely baffled me about not being paid – they are working girls, right? The therapist said the stripper was probably a sex addict too, and was probably abused, and the only way she got attention was from men. Or, she was waiting to gain my husband’s favors after several encounters, and then try to ply money from him (guilt – my car is broken and I need 2K or I can’t work and feed my sick mother nonsense, and I really like you).

    Strip joint laws are different in different states too. In my former state – no booze with full nudity. If booze, only topless. How weird is that?

    Technically – the way prostitutes (call girls) get around the “illegal” part is the money is given first for their time and their company. Whatever happens on the date is then two consenting adults. It’s illegal to say, “I will have sex with you for $300.” OK to say, “I will spend an hour with you for $100. The interesting point about “massage parlors” is that the massage therapist is supposed to be licensed and they cannot legally touch certain body parts. Those places get busted more often than call girls.

    Goodness – I’m long-winded. Again. Take care, Kat. Enjoy time with your father.

    Liked by 2 people

    • We’re back home again. I was really hoping he would get off his ventilator so he could make some real progress and move out of ICU. That hasn’t happened. It’s been a week. It’s going to be a long process so I will probably be back up there next week.

      I know very little about strip clubs other than apparently there are quite a few in Portland. I’ve never tried hard drugs. Frankly, I don’t like being out of control of my body or mind. Blue Eyes has never even tried marijuana, which is now legal here. His body could never tolerate alcohol or drugs of any kind. We’re pretty square around here. I think even BE’s sex addict secret life was pretty vanilla, all things considered. The lying and cheating and betrayal are monstrous, but the stuff he did, pretty boring. He says, quite a lot, that I would be a much better sex addict. and I always say, “that’s because I’m NOT a sex addict.” To be a sex addict, first you have to be a delusional, rationalizing fool. So there’s that. And yeah, from what I’ve heard, the massage parlors involved in the sex trade are out of control. There is a lot of manipulation in the sex trade because the men really are desperate when they need their fix and they’ll believe ANYTHING. xo

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      • I’m sorry your father didn’t get off the ventilator. We’ll cross paws that it will happen sooner than later.

        I don’t like being out of control either. Sometimes, I’ve tried things once. Hoopla and all. Never cheated on my husband once or anything like that, though. I had medical cannabis (tincture – liquid) for PTSD. It sort of helped a bit at 1st; it got me moving more and I seemed more responsive to EMDR therapy. It did not do anything psychoactive – even though it can for some people. Very small dosing. Very expensive in NY and very “processed” – pills, tinctures – no plants for sale here. I can’t breathe any of that stuff in anyhow (asthma, and now the coughing issue). Believe it or not, my doctor just suggested it for my vocal cord paralysis (paralyzed left recurrent laryngeal nerve). I told him it’s too expensive and there’s nothing in any literature which recommends that. Not covered by insurance even though medical and a doc prescribes it. I dabbled in college and the stuff then was psychoactive, but, for me, I only had a little – like the equivalent to 1/2 glass of wine. Just a little relaxation. I’m past the stage of trying anything like that ONCE. hahaha

        The whole sex worker industry is very upsetting to me. The majority of the performers are trafficked, coerced, controlled, etc. in some way. It may not be obvious. Example – a woman may decide to make money that way, but she “rents” her “office” from a guy who provides a good location (known whore house area – draws customers) and she pays rent of several hundred a day. Stuff like that. It may seem like it’s free will, but it’s really not. Human rights are a big deal to me. Rights for people with disabilities, too. So many undocumented people end up in this abusive system. The users contribute to that system. There are plenty of users, for sure.

        Liked by 2 people

        • There are so many marijuana dispensaries in Portland now it’s crazy. I don’t know how they all stay in business and some are very fancy. Regarding the sex worker industry, I agree. If there wasn’t a customer base, there wouldn’t be an industry. It’s sad that people don’t or won’t understand how corrupt and abusive it is. Rationalization of abuse is rampant. Because sex is related with shame in our society, there will always be abuse. I also wonder how many non-trafficked sex workers rationalize their involvement in the industry while they’re in it, but see the light once they’re out. Kind of like mistresses. I also think it is sad that lots of men actually think the paid women “like” or even “love” them. It’s mostly a sad, delusional, abusive system.

          Dad still isn’t off the ventilator, but they’re going to try again today. xoxo

          Liked by 1 person

          • My husband thought they liked him. Now he realizes it was an act and they liked his money. I’m sure it stemmed from strippers “paying attention” to him when he was in his early 20s, way before he met me. He was (is?) shy, and the fact that the women came over to him was a big thrill.

            Hope your dad gets OFF the vent!

            Liked by 1 person

  2. I agree with BA above. I never saw the draw to those places. I thought the women were desperate and needy and the men pathetic. I don’t see any “artistic” skills or value there and think it is just disgusting. I know my husband went both with other guys and alone. Pathetic. The closest I ever came was to go see the Chippendales with a couple of girlfriends back in my 40’s. They were drooling and hooting and I was so embarrassed. I felt so dirty and I felt like I was cheating on my husband. It still creeps me out to even think about it and I haven’t thought about it in decades till now.

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    • Sorry, Marie. I don’t mean to bring up negative things long forgotten. I don’t mean to trigger anyone. I am just always interested in what really drives people and what makes them tick. With sex addicts it’s a seedy place to visit, I know that. Likewise I have never desired to go to strip clubs nor do I think it is a healthy place for anyone to hangout, but c’est la vie, it’s a thing, a vulgar thing, but a thing. When I watched the sopranos I thought it interesting that they hung out in the strip club with half naked women around all the time. In my world, it doesn’t make much sense. ❤

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      • No need to apologize Kat. During my husband’s “acting out” we watched the Sopranos and Lily Hammer and Mad Men. It disgusts me that he sat next to me likely barely containing his lust and waiting till I went to bed so he could go upstairs to play with himself and watch porn. He has said he was a “degenerate” and lived a “degenerate lifestyle”. In my early career I worked in a male dominated industry with a lot of Japanese customers. It was well known in my office that those customers and the executives spent a lot of time at lunch and dinner in strip joints in the Seattle/Portland area and beyond. My position was divided into two so they could hire a man who could and would take the customers off to those places. My husband has said that he knew he was being used by the whores. They used each other. Blah. I don’t think he ever tried to tell himself that he was something special. They told him what he wanted to hear and made him feel what he wanted to feel for the time they were together then they went on to customer # 5 or whatever. Early on I would scream at him, “So did you pay the big bucks to be the first “fuck” of the day or were you turned on knowing she had fucked a few suckers like you first? OMG he would freak out. I don’t think he ever thought of that before. He would tell me I was mean! I was mean? WTF was he? I always said I wished the cops would arrest the customers of prostitutes. I told him many times that if he ever got his sorry ass arrested he should not come home and call someone else. I told him he deserved to have his tender white ass thrown in jail with criminals who might do to him what he did to his whores. I hated him so much those first couple of years. It took a lot and I mean a LOT of work on my part to open my heart and hear his story. Once he “got” that he had done so much damage to me, he began owing his story and apologizing to me over and over, telling me nothing he did was my fault. We will soon have our 40+ anniversary. I’m certainly not celebrating our wonderful marriage but I am celebrating the fact that he has owned his past, feels remorse and has changed his ways. We are now good friends in my eyes. He professes to be gaga over me and that his love is overwhelming and unending. He is grateful for another chance to be the man he always wanted to be. Still kind of hard to trust or believe an addict but his actions match his words now. I am sorry your father isn’t responding better. His body is probably just worn out. Sending you a big hug.

        Liked by 1 person

        • My father is really struggling. He is still on the ventilator, but I think it needs to come out soon or they will have to look at alternatives and that doesn’t sound good. You are right, his body is worn out and of course hospitals can be horrible themselves. He potentially has sepsis and an intestinal bug. But he is making progress in other areas.

          I’m really glad that you have been able to metabolize his abusive SA life and you now have an open, honest and more fulfilling marriage. Really, it’s so important to our mental and physical health to feel safe and not be angry.

          I know my husband sat next to me years ago as we watched Big Love… knowing the Bill Paxton (I miss him) character was really not always honest and seeing women on the side for potential new wives and yet there were set rules for how they would add wives. I could almost understand the multi-wife lifestyle based on their religious beliefs, but his lying and manipulating was such an obvious problem. I asked my husband later how he had felt as we were watching this guy and all his wives and he said it was awful and he felt so much shame knowing he was lying to me.

          Regarding sexually based shows, I think when he was watching with me he wasn’t really in his addiction and so he felt shame and guilt and like he was living a lie (which he was). The porn he watched separate from me was completely different from anything we watched together.

          I don’t think my husband ever thought he was a degenerate, but I do know he felt badly about himself all the time and somehow rationalized a lot of behavior he hated about himself, but it is so difficult to understand because of course they were pleasuring themselves. I know he rationalized me and my feelings out of his mind so that he could do these things. Sometimes when I look at him I still picture that guy that would be obsessing in his head about his acting out behaviors, then leave me to go off with some other awful woman. It still burns inside sometimes. I also know that he would sit right next to me on the bed and text the other woman. I remember looking over at him and asking him what he was doing… he would make sure the phone screen was not visible to me and he would just murmur that he was working. Yeah, hindsight is 20/20. He never hides his screens anymore. xoxo


  3. Right after college I worked for an NBA team. Part of my job was literally trying to ensure that a particular player did not get in any illegal trouble that would make the newspaper. Weird assignment for a 21 year old white chick from the sticks, but this was well before Me Too. Thus, I had a strip club experience while I was babysitting him. I don’t get the fascination. Even a “high end” club seemed seedy to me. Interestingly, after explaining why I wasn’t “more into it” and that I thought it all reeked of desperation and sadness, my player didn’t go again. He didn’t find God and take a vow of chastity or anything, but he found other (mostly legal) ways to have fun.

    I am curious about your thoughts on our partners’ templates. You are not a match for BE’s template, as you describe it, nor am I a match for Handsome’s template. Why do these SAs marry women who don’t fit their arousal template? I have yet to see a partner say “he was acting out with women who look/ were just like me.” It’s usually the polar opposite. I understand how one’s template gets created and I know they can change over time, but BE and Handsome seem to have had pretty steady templates for years, and yet they married women nothing like that. I don’t get it.

    Based on Handsome’s template he should have married a woman much, much younger than him with dark wirey-curly hair (the kind that looks like wet ringlets all day long), gigantic boobs and thighs, dark eyes, and very light skin. Oh, and dumber than a box of rocks. I am younger than him, but only by a few years. I have straight, light-brown hair and blue eyes and I tan gloriously. I think my boobs are quite nice, thank you very much, but they are proportionate to my body and not huge. I am not dumb. Gullible, apparently, but not dumb. I’m not Handsome’s “type.” So why do they pick us?

    Liked by 2 people

    • There are probably theories in SA literature, but IMHO, the women they objectify for just sex are not for marriage. They marry a woman who they may be attracted to, but also one they envision as a partner, and possibly someone who could be a mother to their children. They marry a woman they respect and admire. (I’m generalizing, and yes, it’s disrespectful to lie to their wife.) They marry a person they love, not an “object” – and if they marry an object, I don’t think those marriages last.

      I think physical-sexual templates are really complicated and way more complex than a body type. My husband liked black women (forbidden – against the way he was raised). My husband liked blonds with big breasts (glorified by Hollywood in the 70s). And who knows what else – but I also know he found me attractive b/c of my intelligence, education, work ethic, passion (not just sexual, but also my beliefs), smile/joy, ease of conversation, independence, and more. And for my physical attributes – he also likes brunettes with long hair and nice teeth.

      Some people seem to think the “Madonna-Whore Complex” is a thing – Google it – see what you think. (One woman is a chaste mother – that’s the wife, and the whore is for sexual gratification – simplified version.) Not sure what I think about it.

      Those are my thoughts, for what they are worth. I asked myself this question before, but then I realized it’s not about me – physically – at all (or what he has) it’s about what’s forbidden and in secret. I know I am attractive.

      Liked by 2 people

      • I first heard of the Madonna Whore complex theory the very night I found out about my husband’s secret life. I googled for hours that night. “why do men cheat” being probably my first search. I’m sure it’s a thing for some men, but not my husband. He didn’t put me up on THAT kind of pedestal and I know he didn’t consider the other women whores. He had no trouble having sex with me… or them. He’s a sex addict pure and simple and we all know what that means at this point. Just like the whole “we marry our daddy” thing is a theory that maybe applies to a handful of the population, it makes for a good headline, nonetheless. We simply aren’t part of their addictive life, that is why they had to keep it secret. The two lives didn’t go together. xo

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      • I think my husband had some of that Madonna-Whore Complex going on for sure. He admits that.

        I absolutely understand that their addictive choices aren’t about us – and I am a catch, so why wouldn’t he have picked me – BUT … let me personalize it. As a general proposition, I like fit, tall, light haired men with amazing eyes (who are smart and funny and who have dark senses of humor and all the other non- physical attributes I find attractive). I never dated swarthy guys with dark hair. Or someone shorter than me. I married – chose to spend my life with – someone who fit my own template. I guess I’m curious about whether SAs subconsciously partner against their template. Or if we actually are their template on one level but they compartmentalize an entirely different template for their addiction (maybe that makes the separation of fantasy and reality easier?).

        It’s probably a dorky, rabbit hole of a question, but it does make me wonder…

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        • IMHO, they must’ve found attractive qualities in us, or they would have partnered with us. I think you hit the nail on the head, BA, compartmentalization part. Part of the draw is the fantasy, the secret, the special “event” – build up to the event. That’s probably more of the drug than actually being with the person. Sort of an anti-climax at that point (pun intended). LOL My husband told me it was a a great deal about the planning and anticipation, and when he was there, he was often nervous and left full of shame. Yuck. He hired women based on their physical attributes (fee for service sex workers) — different than an on-going affair, and there are so many kinds of affairs. IM HO, porn. is a type of “affair” – sexual energy away from the marriage and she (porn) never disappoints – she is always there, and if you don’t like her, click on an other one.

          Liked by 1 person

        • Interesting. This whole template concept is fascinating. Personally, I know I had a physical attraction template… although I can certainly see the appeal, say, of a young Robert Redford, I have never been attracted to blondes. In college (for the brief period of time before Blue Eyes), I dated dark haired men with fit bodies but I never had the intention to date them long term or marry them. Blue Eyes never fit any physical template of mine. When I realized I wanted to date Blue Eyes, it was totally personality related, although because of who I am, the physical aspect grew and I am definitely a one-man woman. I don’t flirt with men or look at them in a sexual way. I don’t need to.

          Anyway, BE was intelligent and funny and quirky and like no one I had ever known. Ironically, he was sensitive and kind (unlike some of the others) and actually, he was sickly. We were only 20, so I had never known someone my age that was sick, much less dated them. I fell in love with a person, not a type. This made it extremely difficult for me when it came time to question whether we would actually get married. I met other guys along the way (we were engaged for nearly 5 years)… I was still in college when BE went off to Japan without me, and then went off to Law School without me. There were other guys who I had classes with and became close to that fit my physical template far more than Blue Eyes, but they didn’t intrigue me as much. They weren’t as interesting, so the emotional/intellectual connection far outweighed the physical one.

          Likewise, I don’t think Blue Eyes thought much about templates, ever. It has come up since his diagnosis, but in his life and in his addiction, I think he just went on instinct and instinct told him to pair up with any woman who would give him what he wanted or needed. With me, that pairing was about something long term and intimate and real. He didn’t look at me as a sexual conquest. As a matter of fact, I was far more adventurous and aggressive sexually than he was. He has never been confident or outgoing sexually either in or out of his addiction. It’s a slow methodical process for him, thus another reason for no prostitutes/massages/strip clubs, I think. He milked the grooming aspect for everything it was worth. A fake “relationship” with a stripper just wouldn’t do it for him. In some ways it is way more diabolical as he really reeled these women in. Very predatory. The long term acting out partner doesn’t fit any template except the big boob thing and being vulnerable to his manipulation. She was (is) older, unattractive, has horrible habits and is abusive. Pretty sure he threw any physical template out the window with this one. He wasn’t choosing a physical type. The fantasy was in what he conjured in his head and she was just a player in the game. I still cannot believe he had sex so many times with this woman.

          I think you are a very intelligent woman, blackacre, and you are trying to make sense of something that doesn’t make a lot of sense. Yes, they had a secret addictive life from which they obtained hits to keep their addict brain satisfied. They most likely adapted along the way. What they conjured in their mind may be something completely different from what we see physically. I know BE did this because when he saw the other woman in reality after the fact, he was horrified. I could see it on his face. Likewise with the slutty secretary… when he saw pictures of her after the fact. He tried to convince me it wasn’t even the same woman!!! Just like guys who go to prostitutes think the women are in love with them, or need them, or whatever. It’s a vile game where all the players who know, are messed up. We have to separate ourselves from that game. We weren’t invited to play, and even if we had been, we would have declined. xoxo

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          • Yes, I do overthink and try to make sense of the crazy. A part of me feels as though if I could just understand it more, maybe it would hurt a bit less.

            Handsome has also been appalled to see photos of his APs. He sees that whatever he thought they looked like when he was acting out is not at all what they look like in the light of sobriety.

            Liked by 1 person

            • I have also tried to make sense of it all. The pain of the experience was nearly unbearable. I had to be able to make sense for fear I would go insane. My brain is an ordered one, potentially over-ordered. I think and plan and make mostly really good decisions. I don’t lie or cheat and I NEED things to make sense. I think we are similar in that respect. It still hurts when BE calls me competitive or insinuates that I HAVE to be right. I only “argue” about things that are important to me and if I’m wrong, it’s like an altered reality. I think it’s part of an obsessive compulsive situation. He thinks it’s funny. Not funny to me. We are such very different people, but I loved our differences for the most part. Now I’m not so sure.

              Just a few minutes ago I heard someone run in and down the stairs. I thought it was our son because he and his friends are usually the only ones that run in the house, but he’s at a class right now. Blue Eyes had taken the dogs on a walk. He denied going downstairs at all, much less running. But our son isn’t home. He continued to deny. This was maybe 10 minutes ago! I then said, “it smells like bagels.” And he said, “oh yeah, I walked a little longer than expected and had bagels in the oven. I thought they might have burned.” And then I said, “so you DID come in and run down the stairs???” And he finally admitted that that probably did happen. This is not an important situation other than sometimes I think he just denies my reality as a matter of habit. I just heard someone flying down the stairs knowing our son shouldn’t be home and BE’s first instinct is to tell me it wasn’t him or I’m wrong. Crazy! It was only a few minutes ago that he did in fact do it. Perhaps I was worried about our son, or still have some PTSD from the meth addict situation, who knows, but why deny a simple reality? It drives me crazy. I do get it! ❤️

              Liked by 1 person

              • Kat, you should listen to Esther Perel’s podcast “A Small Town Affair”. The guy of the couple lies and fabulates about everything. I listened to it at least 10 times and basically wrote a transcript of it for myself because it was riveting on the topic of lying and fabulation, from both sides of the couple.
                My friend lies like you describe BE…all the time, about everything and the trivial ones are the most bizarre. It is a character flaw and not an overtly hostile habit.

                How is your father?

                Liked by 1 person

                • Hi B. I have a growing list of podcasts to listen to… I’ll add this one. Yeah, for BE it’s a bad bad habit. My Dad is still in ICU, it’s been a roller coaster ride. The care is really hit and miss and his body is so beaten down. I still think he’s going to make it out of there. ❤


                • Yeah, it’s so unnerving all his ingrained bad habits. I’ve written about this a lot, but I think he harbored really dysfunctional behaviors in order to cope with his life during childhood and because I wasn’t part of the fantasy life, the one he could control, I was part of the real life, the one he felt he needed to avoid and lie in order to get through. It is really unfair to me and continues to be one of the things I just don’t like and find hard to live with. I’m not the enemy. I have no ulterior motives for asking him things other than to make my own life make sense.


    • What an interesting (and strange) job, blackacre. Sounds difficult. I do think the whole sex for pay industry reeks of desperation and sadness as well, but there are a lot of people who think there is absolutely nothing wrong with it. No emotional attachment. It’s entertainment. There are also A LOT of blogs with explicitly sexual content and a lot of talk about cheating and affairs, some of which is pure fiction. It does absolutely nothing for me other than make me feel sad. I was raised to associate sex with loving, open and honest relationships, but I never really thought about what other people wanted or needed. All I cared about was that I had what I needed. Well, we know how that went. Now the thought of cheap, casual sexual encounters makes me sick to my stomach.

      Regarding their arousal templates, I have thought about this long and hard and discussed it in therapy a few times. I know that for Blue Eyes I absolutely am not in his sexual acting out template. His original template, large hispanic women, came from his nannies when he was young. His mother hired a certain type of woman because she was under the illusion BE’s father wouldn’t be attracted to them. It always makes me think of Arnold Schwarzenegger. One of the nannies and her friend would cuddle with BE and his younger brother, in bed, watching movies… when the boys were way too old to be doing this. I think BE had that visual in his mind for quite some time and the first two acting out partners fit that bill. Mostly though, I think he sought out desperate women who looked like they would give him what he wanted because they were needy. This would describe the last partner as well. I’m not sure if he would have been as attracted to the situation or for as long as he was if she didn’t have large, saggy breasts. For some reason, that was always in his template. I find that visual, or that reality frankly, repulsive from a sexual perspective, but I am OBVIOUSLY not a desperate male sex addict. I know if you asked BE today, he would say vulnerability and desperation were the main requirements for grooming. I also know he has other “fantasies” because they are considered more “forbidden” and those were accessed through porn.

      Regarding his relationship with me, apparently I was never about sexual addiction. I came along way before he had honed his skills. I think our husbands chose us for exactly the opposite reason they chose their acting out partners. They wanted stability and intelligence in their long term mate. We weren’t simply objects to them. It has been so difficult to separate me, who I am, what I represent, how I look, from what he did. But I have learned, they literally are two separate worlds. He never intended for me to even find out about his acting out partners, much less be compared to them. When he met me I wasn’t overweight and I don’t have an ounce of hispanic blood, and yet he pursued me with a vengeance. Who knew he had a “template” at that point. I’m pretty sure he didn’t.

      I have talked with others about their SA’s templates and some seem somewhat obvious, like the beautiful blue eyed blonde whose husband’s first sexual encounter was with an Asian prostitute while he was stationed overseas… all his extra-marital sexual partners were asian.

      At first I was also confused by his choices, and how different they were from me and because what he did seemed so cruel, there must have been something wrong with me, but then I realized… this shit he was doing behind my back, had nothing to do with me. I was never part of his dark side. xoxo

      Liked by 2 people

      • Ha! My resume says “[NBA Team] Marketing Assistant” for that job but it should more accurately say “Professional Assistant, Adult Babysitter and Confidant.” It paid the rent, exposed me to some interesting and amazing things and people, and gave me a cool topic for my law school application essays.

        Take a look at my reply to Beleeme here. Perhaps a therapist who deals with SAs would have some insight, but the whole template disparity is something I noodle occasionally.

        Liked by 1 person

          • You bet. I also find writing to be therapeutic. I just like to get things off my mind. It makes me feel good and I hope some of my writing helps other people. Your writing helps me by learning what happens in your life. I haven’t experienced these things, but it opens a new area of exploration. I think this occurs whenever we read anything someone else reads. It’s why I love reading so much. It opens up another’s world for me to explore.

            Liked by 2 people

            • Your posts are great! When my husband was first diagnosed I thought he needed someone other than me, in real life (not therapy or 12 step related), to know what was going on with him so he sent a Patrick Carnes book to a close friend (someone he had known since childhood). The friend and his wife read the book about sex addiction and were astonished and grateful for the knowledge. It helped open their mind to suffering they previously wouldn’t even have thought of. So beyond being there for my husband, they felt like they could better grasp the fact that we just never know what people are struggling with, no matter how together they look on the outside.

              Liked by 1 person

              • Exactly. I found this out with my Dad. He’s got Dementia and uses so much energy trying to be normal when people visit. The holidays wore him out and he failed to accomplish what he wanted to. It’s sad to see, but also very human. We all grasp to keep things normal when things may not be. Blogging, exercise, and meditation are what “normalizes” me. They allow me to get rid of the chaos that tries to creep in from time to time. You keep writing. If it helps, keep doing it. ~Dave

                Liked by 1 person

            • I’m going to check out your blog, Dave.

              I blog, but not very frequently. I admire good writing; I don’t think I’m that great of a writer. I write as part of healing – from trauma / infidelity and also recently from thoracic surgery.

              Liked by 2 people

    • It’s so true… secrecy was a big deal for my husband. It’s crazy though in hindsight how much I just didn’t know. It’s infuriating really. It’s also quite obvious now how much control he had within his addiction and how he was able to relinquish control outside of it because he knew all he had to do was go to his addiction to get what he wanted. That’s not a proper partnership at all. It took a long time before he stopped medicating with those secrets inside his head.

      Liked by 2 people

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